110. Creating a secure Ethical Non Monogamous relationship with Jessica Fern.

Episode Description

What is ENM - Ethical Non Monogamy? What does ENM mean? How can you have a deep, meaningful, and secure relationship with multiple partners? These are the difficult questions that my guest Jessica Fern will answer.

The world has always treated poly relationships as second-class, not "real" relationships. But in her groundbreaking book, Jessica Fern shows how ENM relationships can carry the same deep meaning and provide secure attachment as monogamous relationships. Jessica is a psychotherapist specializing in polyamory, and the author of the very successful and important book Poly Secure: Attachment, Trauma, and Consensual Nonmonogamy. Jessica will explain the basics of an ENM relationship and how to create secure attachments with multiple partners.

Here's a link to Jessica Fern's book

Here's a link to Jessica Fern's website

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):

Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's therapist in San Francisco. I wanna welcome you to sex love and couple's therapy. We all want to feel loved. That's a universal desire, but sometimes instead of feeling loving our relationships, feel confusing, frustrating, and a little crazy making the purpose of this podcast is to help you clear up some of that confusion so that you and your partner can find ways to make your relationship feel closer, more connected, and more loving. So stay tuned. We've got a lot of great stuff to talk about, and now let's go talk about my three favorite topics, sex love, and couples therapy.

Speaker 1 (00:58):

Hi, and welcome to sex love and couples therapy. I'm very, very pleased today to have, as my guest, Jessica Fern, Jessica is a psychotherapist public speaker and trauma and relationship expert, and the author of what I think is an extremely important book, poly secure attachment trauma and consensual non-monogamy. I just wanna kind of take a second to set this up a little bit in the sense that talking about attachment, cuz in my experience, listening to other podcasts or interviews, when people talk about polyamory, it's often around kind of the mechanics. Yeah. You know, who sleeps with who, when, what happens, what's the hierarchy, all this sort of stuff. And what to me is kind of a voyeuristic kind of approach.

Speaker 2 (01:48):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49):

And I really want to be try hard not to replicate that. Mm I'm hoping that what we can do is look at polyamory kind of through the lens that you've created in your book of, of attachment. But as you know, and as you talk about your book, attachment theory, especially adult attachment theory is based on the assumption of monogamy.

Speaker 2 (02:13):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:14):

And actually pathologizes polyamory as evidence of a non-secure attachment.

Speaker 2 (02:24):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:26):

And I just thought that that was such an important distinction that you've kind of brought up there and that you've really, I, from my point of view kind of broke a new ground in extending attachment theory to include people in non-monogamous relationships. And I just think that's an extraordinary thing to do. And it was just a wonderful addition.

Speaker 2 (02:47):

Mm thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:49):

<laugh> I wonder my kind of last little setup is the words polyamory mm-hmm <affirmative> consensual, non monogamy are kind of tossed around

Speaker 2 (03:00):

As synonymous, right?

Speaker 1 (03:02):

Yeah. As synonymous. Right. And so for our discussion, I wonder, I'm not asking you to kind of do a full education, but if you could create a little bit of a frame of what is it we're talking about today, when you say polyamory so that the guests kind of we're all on the same page to start with.

Speaker 2 (03:23):

Right. Great. Well, I'll say con yeah. Consensual non-monogamy would be the umbrella term for all the different ways, which includes polyamory. Um, but isn't limited to polyamory that there's more than one sexual or romantic partner and that consensual part is key, everybody know. Right. Which is different than cheating. Right. Which would be non-consensual non monogamy. Right. Um, so polyamorous specifically people who, you know, poly as many and Amory as Amor love where I'm having many loves right. Partners that I'm falling in love with. And so in that case, which is different than people that might do a version of non monogamy where they might have one partner that they're in love with and other partners that they're more casual and sexual with. Right. And there's many ways again to do it. Right. So polyamory is, yes. I have multiple people I'm in love with and multiple people that I consider an attachment based kind of relationship.

Speaker 1 (04:23):

Interesting. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and kind of a last question. If I think of myself, I view myself as a, a cisgender man. So that's my kind of sexual, my gender identity. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and my sexual identity, as I'm straight though, I can imagine some wiggle room there for me. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but I also think of let's call it my relationship identity as being monogamous. Yes. My wife and I have been together for 40 years in a monogamous relationship. So that's kind of what I'm attracted to and what I connect with. And I wonder when we think of polyamory or a polyamorous person, where does polyamory fit in there? Is that kind of baked in the way? I might think of my, my gender identity being baked in mm-hmm <affirmative> or how do you see being what it means to be a polyamorous person?

Speaker 2 (05:21):

Yeah. And it's interesting cuz many people do like on certain dating apps, you can identify as polysexual as your sexual orientation. So some people are labeling it that way that your orientation is too more like one partner or many. I think of it as the relationship structure. Right. So you're saying right, you prefer the monogamous relationship structure and like things like sexual orientation or gender. I see it as existing on a spectrum, you know, with sort of monogamy on one end polyamory on the other. And there's a lot going on in the middle here. It's not a rigid binary by any means. And so as one of the things I bring up in the book, which of course is, you know, a can be a contentious topic for some people, is that some people really do feel like it's an iden, it's a, an orientation for them. It's not just a lifestyle choice that they're choosing. Cuz I like it. Or I align with it. You know, they actually feel like this is fundamentally who they are. And so I see people that do polyamory as a lifestyle choice and I see people who deeply feel like there's no other way for them to be it's an orientation.

Speaker 1 (06:34):

Oh, that's so interesting that people can exist on that spectrum. That's very interesting. I never thought of it quite that way.

Speaker 2 (06:39):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I don't wanna trivialize it, but I think of it, like let's take something like food choices, our diet, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I have a severe gluten allergy, so I eat paleo for medical reasons, but a lot of people eat a paleolithic diet because they want a certain physique or they have a certain philosophy. Right. And it's a choice mm-hmm <affirmative> but they might then be vegetarian or eat wheat or at other times. Right. So right in the same way, you know, there can be things that we step into because um, we want to, and sometimes it's like, that's the only choice I feel like I have

Speaker 1 (07:19):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I'm wondering when you see couples, cuz you, you see couples who are polyamorous, I guess my question is what do they see as their challenge, emotionally forming attachments in a polyamorous setting and what do they get out of it? What, what's the reward that they feel that they don't, they're not getting from mono non monogamy from monogamy rather

Speaker 2 (07:44):

From monogamy. Yeah. Well there's lots of rewards. Oh right. Yeah. There's lots of rewards. Just like you could probably say you have more than one friend in your life or if people have more than one child or more than one pet <laugh> right. That like there's a lot of rewards from the expansion of our social experience. Right. Um, and in very few places in our life where we truly in a mono experience. Right, right. So there's many benefits and rewards. Um, you know, the research shows that people identify that they get more of their non-sexual needs met. So there might be certain interests that are very important to me, but my husband does not share. Wow, amazing. I get to explore that interest or get it satisfied with another partner. You know, people identify as having more support in their life, more love in their life. Um, they report having more opportunity to grow for better or worse <laugh> cause when you have more partners, there's a lot more mirrors being reflected back at you. Right. And so it's harder to get away with your so to speak, you know, <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> so you're, it's really become this push you, people have to grow in, in new ways in polyamory. Right. Monogamy doesn't always catalyze that kind of growth.

Speaker 1 (09:07):

Right. And I, I, I would imagine that that's, if maybe they begin as a couple and then, and move into polyamory, I could imagine that one of the fears or issues is that, that growth that takes place, that expansion that takes place through polyamory can be a threat.

Speaker 2 (09:26):

Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:28):

To that original relationship.

Speaker 2 (09:31):

Yeah. And that's what I'm actually writing about this in my next book. Is, is that polyamory then? Or is that just the process of differentiation, right. That, you know, if you look at the stages like Ellen Bader's work of going from symbiosis to differentiation, a lot of couples monogamous ones, don't make it through that. Right. <laugh> right, right. So right. If you're not, no longer enacting codependent patterns, we might not stay together. Even if we were just you and me. Right.

Speaker 1 (10:02):

Right.

Speaker 2 (10:03):

Yeah. So you're right. There's with more benefit. Of course there comes certain risks. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:11):

Right. But I, but you can imagine that there's a real drive to find those additional benefits that there's mm-hmm, <affirmative> that's to engage or embark on this path, the partners or the individuals really have to feel that there's something that they they're looking for or wanting to get.

Speaker 2 (10:33):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (10:33):

That's not kind of satisfied in monogamy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:36):

Yeah. And, and some to add a few more to that, cuz that's sort of, I first said what the survey research has shown, but just what my practice has shown is of course there's sexual reasons and there's nothing wrong with that. You know, that we might have wonderful sex with our spouse, but there might be other sex styles that our spouse has no interest in kink would be a easy one. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and someone feels like, I really feel like I need a kink exploration. Well, great. You can go have that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> you don't have to be denied that experience, you know, or there's a lot of monogamous couples that don't have a lot of romance or sexuality, but they love their family and they don't want that right. To, they don't wanna divorce so they can keep the structure of the life they built the family they have and yet still have aspects of sex or romance in their life. Just not with each other. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:31):

Sometimes in my work I do a lot of work with couples in which they feel sexually disengaged and maybe they've been married for a while and the sex kind of goes away gradually or suddenly from the relationship. And couples tend to frame that as a loss of desire.

Speaker 2 (11:49):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Speaker 1 (11:52):

And I often kind of push back on that, that framing because what I, my kind of take is that often sexual intimacy goes away in, in a relationship as a function of a loss of emotional intimacy mm-hmm

Speaker 2 (12:08):

<affirmative>

Speaker 1 (12:09):

So they become they've pulled apart emotionally. And then to me, after the first few years, emotional intimacy for me is the fuel for sexual intimacy. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so if the emotional intimacy goes, the sex follows, sometimes it can take quite a bit of discussion before they're willing to see that. Oh yeah. Maybe, maybe it's not because I no longer desire him or her maybe it's that we feel distant

Speaker 2 (12:37):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Speaker 1 (12:39):

And I'm wondering whether in your practice, I don't in any way wanna pathologize this. Right. But whether sometimes there's a desire to move to polyamory as a way of not moving closer to the monogamous partner.

Speaker 2 (12:58):

Right. I think of course, does that show up, but I don't think that's the norm. Right. Ah, okay. Right. I don't think that's the primary drive. Why people are doing it. Yeah. But have I seen that? Of course. But you know, there's so many things, like I mostly agree with what you're saying that yes. Many times sexual intimacy has waned because of there's this emotional distance. A lot of times too though, there's it's not even just emotional distance. It's emotional safety has been lost.

Speaker 1 (13:32):

Right.

Speaker 2 (13:32):

Right. And sometimes that can be repaired and sometimes it isn't repairable. Right. And it's like, Ooh, we have to look at that. <laugh> right. Right. Which is hard. Right. Yeah, exactly. But what's really fascinating is that it's common that couples open up and their sex drive for each other just skyrockets.

Speaker 1 (13:56):

Right.

Speaker 2 (13:57):

You know there's

Speaker 1 (13:57):

And what do you think that means? What happens that that makes that happen? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:02):

I think there can be something about, um, possession and ownership. Like once we feel free, like, oh wait, I don't own you. And I can't just take you for granted and I'm not in your sexuality actually isn't mine, it's yours. And you get to choose what you wanna do with it. Wow. Now that you're sexy and hot to me again, cuz I don't possess you in the way that's just familiar and comfortable and known. Right. So we become mysterious to each other again. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:34):

Or conversely, I stop feeling like you are trying to possess my sexual, my sexuality or exactly own me in that way.

Speaker 2 (14:45):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:45):

You know, I see a, a lot in, in couples that um, one partner will be really upset if the other partner masturbates

Speaker 2 (14:55):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. It's almost like cheating. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:57):

It's almost like cheating. How,

Speaker 2 (14:59):

How dare you.

Speaker 1 (15:00):

Yeah. How dare you? How dare you have this sexual experience without me without get what you're saying that <affirmative> but I get what you're saying is that if, if I'm freed from either those sense of being owned or having to own somebody else's sexuality, then a lot of opportunity and feeling gets freed up.

Speaker 2 (15:21):

Exactly. Exactly. And I think what starts to happen too, is people enter into these, whether it's dating apps or non monogamous communities and there's just more dialogue around sexuality mm-hmm <affirmative> and so people sort of like erotic line of intelligence starts to grow and then you're like, oh, maybe we should try this. Or I tried this with someone else. Never even thought it was something we would wanna do. You know? So it's sort of like, um, I'm gonna botch up that phrase. The tide rises all the boats <laugh> right, right. So if someone might be doing something very different with a new partner, um, they can bring back some of that new intelligence to their original relationships. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:04):

And what do you think the challenges are as a couple or an individual moves into this non-monogamous space?

Speaker 2 (16:11):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's, there are a bunch of challenges of course. And um, you know, and poly secure, I talked about the challenge of our attachment gets activated. Right. And either it exposes an insecure attachment that sort of monogamy was buffering for us, um, or eclipsing for us, or we were securely bonded and attached to our partner. But moving into a different relationship structure creates all this insecure attachment that wasn't there before, you know? Right. Yeah. That's really hard cuz that's not just like, like attachment isn't just theoretical or emotional. I mean it's like primal nervous system. <laugh> it's the sense of like, am I safe and, and am I gonna die or not like that's the level that gets activated with our attachment system. So there's lots of beauty of that. We can have more attachments to people, but obviously there can be these attachment disruptions that I talk about there.

Speaker 1 (17:12):

Um, and how do you, how do you talk to couples about that are individuals about that attachment disruption or that, that sense of vulnerability that comes from moving beyond a traditional monogamous relationship?

Speaker 2 (17:25):

Yeah. Yeah. So we usually start to explore of like, okay, where were you getting your attachment security before? And you know, what do you need now? Right. It might not be the same. It usually has to change. You know? So people that were just relying on the structure, I say, okay, structure's important. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it can give us a sense of security, but that be the only place it has to be that relational experience. Are you available? Are you responsive? Are you attuned and vice versa? Hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:02):

And I think you make a, in the book, a fascinating kind of case about how, just to that point, we tend to rely on structure mm-hmm <affirmative> in the relationship to provide, um, a sense of safety and attachment as opposed to actually those relationship dynamics and, and feeling close. So we rely on, oh, well we're married, therefore we're close

Speaker 2 (18:28):

Versus

Speaker 1 (18:29):

As opposed versus right.

Speaker 2 (18:31):

Do you ask me how I am at the end of the day? Right. Like, <laugh> right. Do you, do you even care how I am at the end of the day? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:39):

And I thought that that was something that what he talked about, I think have a quote here, when we rely on the structure of our relationship, whether that is through being monogamous with someone are practicing hierarchical forms of consensual, non, non monogamy. We run the risk of forgetting that secure attachment is an embodied expression built upon how we consistently respond and attun to each other, not something that gets created through structure and hierarchy.

Speaker 2 (19:09):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (19:10):

Yeah. That was a, that was a great,

Speaker 2 (19:13):

That,

Speaker 1 (19:17):

That takes a lot. I would imagine that takes a lot of kind of head and kind of rethinking for people to kind of get mm-hmm <affirmative> at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (19:27):

Yeah. Well I think they, they intuitively get it right when you point out, oh, you were relying on the fact that you've got kids together to feel safe and they oh yeah. Right, right. Versus how are you treating each other, you know, especially pieces around attunement and responsiveness, you know, or, um, Gottman's work around emotional bids. Right. People, they hear that and they're like, oh yeah, <laugh> that, that hasn't been happening. Right.

Speaker 1 (20:00):

That hasn' been happening. Right, right.

Speaker 2 (20:01):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:02):

Within that, um, I was also interested in the way you talked about the evolution of polyamory

Speaker 2 (20:09):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Speaker 1 (20:11):

And how the early models assumed a hierarchical structure in which there was a primary coupling at the center. And these other relationships kind of were like spokes off of the center, but that the pair were committed to protecting the primary

Speaker 2 (20:32):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (20:33):

Over the meta MOS. The other relationships.

Speaker 2 (20:37):

Exactly. Everything else is secondary,

Speaker 1 (20:41):

But that seems to be changing. Yeah. How, how is that changing?

Speaker 2 (20:45):

Yeah. And so people still do that. So if anyone's listening and that's what you wanna do, that's okay to do it. Just let everyone know in who's coming into your, you know, dating sphere that that's the style you're doing. But a lot of people have been trying to dismantle this hierarchy. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and say, I don't favor one person over the other or privilege one person over the other, you know, and they're calling it non-hierarchical polyamory. Of course I put, you know, caveats into that like, well, there's always some form of hierarchy. Like the partner I've been with for 10 years has a time hierarchy that just the person I've been with for six months just doesn't have right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Where me and the 10 year partner have established rituals and holidays and traditions and memories that like, you know, I just am not gonna have, or the person I share a child with or a house with which in my case is two different people. Right. There's certain aspects of prioritization, you know? So even that switch prioritization investment is maybe different than hierarchy. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but a lot of people are trying to challenge hierarchy and make sure that when there's been a primary couple, that new partners that come in have a voice, they have a say in how their relationship with that partner rolls out. And they're just not at the mercy of what their partner's partner wants.

Speaker 1 (22:16):

I can imagine that so that we have to create safety all across the, the family unit, this expanded family unit. So if I'm a, a newcomer yeah. Lover, I have to feel like I have a place here.

Speaker 2 (22:34):

Exactly. There's space for you and who you're with to create your version of a relationship. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so if I'm the old comer <laugh>, if I've been there, I also have to go, oh yeah, I have to make some space for you too, you know, and include you in. Right. And not just say, oh, yield to how I've been doing things with this person all these years. Yeah. So there's, there's give and take. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (23:03):

How does that get navigated? Because that strikes me as a, as a, you know, as a big ask for at least it would be when I think about myself. Yeah. You know, that would be a big ask for me.

Speaker 2 (23:16):

Right, right. <laugh> yeah. Yeah. And so right. When, when couples are starting from a marriage, I'm like, don't, don't undo your hierarchy overnight. It's just not, it's too much of a shock, you know, so phase it. Right. Okay. You know, and this, you might or might not find people that are willing to do that with you, but you will find other people that also have a full life and they don't have five or six days a week that they're available to you either, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> um, but in that original relationship, yeah. What do, how many nights a week do we need to feel like we're still in the relationship that we're invested in <laugh>

Speaker 1 (23:57):

Right.

Speaker 2 (23:58):

You know, and how much what's the minimum, what's the maximum and just sort of starting with that kind of question. And usually what happens is you have to say, well, time is limited. So it can't always be about quantity. We have to really look at the quality mm-hmm <affirmative> right. What are we doing with those two or three nights that we have, right. Is it actually fulfilling to us? Are we doing what matters, right. Or are we kind of checked out and like in default mode?

Speaker 1 (24:26):

Right.

Speaker 2 (24:27):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:28):

But I was thinking that I have a kind of, if I take the attachment quizzes, mm-hmm, <affirmative> I have kind of a mix of kind of a, a secure and somewhat anxious attachment style. That's who I am. Okay. And that anxiety, that anxious part of me gets reflected in how I ask or need my in this case. Cause I'm married my wife to demonstrate to me my importance to her. Yeah. You know, cause to demonstrate how, how we're connected, how we're in love, how we're, how we're a couple, how I'm important to her as she is to me. And I was wondering as that in a polyamorous arrangement, it must be difficult or challenging to find ways to, to feel, to demonstrate how important the other person is to you and be also at the same time, demonstrating that you have needs that they're not meeting

Speaker 2 (25:44):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Speaker 1 (25:47):

Yes. Does that make any sense?

Speaker 2 (25:48):

It does. And it's really interesting too, that there's a invisible tension in monogamy that we all know no one person can meet all of my needs, but when I'm in monogamy, the expectation is that all of my needs will get met here. Or I just never, ever in my life will get those other needs needs met. Right. So that's that tension. I know you can't meet all of them cuz you're a different person and I love you. And now I just have to sacrifice certain needs. Right. So there's something paradoxical or beautiful that happens is you open up and you go, oh, I can get some of these needs out there. And then you just feel so much more accepting and appreciative of what you're getting in that original relationship. Like you, people start valuing what's there more, cause they're not focusing anymore on what I'm not getting from here.

Speaker 1 (26:44):

Right.

Speaker 2 (26:45):

Right.

Speaker 1 (26:45):

And I think, yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. That makes a lot of sense. And, and I think that, that what, I'm not getting that, what you call that invisible tension in monogamy is something that couples have a tremendous trouble talking about.

Speaker 2 (27:03):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:05):

Yeah. Because they're afraid if, if I really start to talk about what I feel like I'm not getting, that's gonna cause more problems so better that I just kind of lock that away.

Speaker 2 (27:16):

Exactly. Right. And it's, it's tricky. Uh, Terry real talks about, I think this relationship reckoning, do you know that concept? Mm-hmm <affirmative> from him sort of like right. You know, whatever the cutoff is. We're like, okay, I need 80% of my needs met to consider this a fulfilling relationship. And then I kind of have to have this reckoning of yeah. That 20% just not gonna happen here. But I think what you're getting at is when we start to allow ourselves, to be honest, there might be deal breakers that we didn't wanna ever admit, you know? Right. And that's the, the danger, right? Oh, there might be a deal breaker in here for me actually.

Speaker 1 (27:58):

Right. Yeah. And so we, instead we keep quiet about it, then risk actually talking about what might be a deal breaker.

Speaker 2 (28:04):

Right. Cause I don't wanna get divorced.

Speaker 1 (28:06):

I don't want to get divorced. I don't want, I don't want to, I don't want to blow this up. So I'll just not talk about it.

Speaker 2 (28:13):

Exactly.

Speaker 1 (28:14):

And that is, I think what really happens that's the, the energy behind emotional distance mm-hmm <affirmative> is I start to accumulate more and more items that I'm not talking about.

Speaker 2 (28:27):

Yeah, exactly. This withholding, this sort of yeah. Containing exactly.

Speaker 1 (28:35):

But hopefully with the discussion that leads to non-monogamy I get a chance to talk about some stuff that have always wanted to talk about,

Speaker 2 (28:44):

And this is what couples say. They're like, this has been the hardest year, usually in this first year similar. I I think very similar to having a newborn you're like, this was really hard, but I like have more love in my life cuz I, you know, than ever. And they're like, this year has been so hard, but we are more honest, we're more connected and we're more intimate than we've ever been. Cuz we're talking about all the things we weren't talking about. Yeah. I mean, I it's a bumper sticker for me at this point. <laugh> like how many times I hear couples say it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:16):

And when couples then feel that freedom and have those conversations they'd never had before I wonder, do they ever then feel more connected and move away from non-monogamy and back to monogamy? Or is that pretty unlikely?

Speaker 2 (29:33):

Usually not. Yeah. I mean of course people go back to monogamy, you know, sometimes they're like, you know, it just, they tried it, they like didn't know and they wanted to try it and it wasn't what they wanted once they tried it and they go back mm-hmm <affirmative> often, no, they say that and they are moving forward where they're like, no, this like this is giving us that level of intimacy and honesty and yeah. And, and what the other people that have entered their lives are doing, they wouldn't wanna give up either.

Speaker 1 (30:04):

Interesting.

Speaker 2 (30:05):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:06):

I was think I was thinking about, you know, I was talking about just now my, my kind of attachment style and how I remember that you had a traumatic childhood.

Speaker 2 (30:17):

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:18):

I'm not gonna kind of press you to talk about that. But I also had a traumatic childhood mm-hmm <affirmative> and I can see how my childhood trauma helped shape the direction of my attachment needs and my attachment style and kind of where I, where I lie on that spectrum. Right. Between monogamy and, and non-monogamy. Yeah, that's really pretty clear. And I wonder, and I'm not looking to for any details, but I wonder whether for yourself mm-hmm <affirmative> you, you understand kind of where it all, where this came from and how this fits into you as a person.

Speaker 2 (31:00):

Absolutely. And I think the caveat is, this is such a good example. You and I right here of like everyone can have trauma and it might put them in either direction. So we couldn't, I don't want anyone to conclude that, oh, trauma makes someone polyamorous or it makes them monogamous cuz it's like, we can go in either way. Yeah. And I don't, I can see it's so fascinating that cuz I had many different step families, different, um, losses, different, you know, for Christmas holiday there would be three or four different households that I'd have to go to <laugh> I never had a singular family existence. And so I didn't think of it until I opened up from my first marriage that I had an easier time navigating multiple partners, cuz I already had the skills to navigate multiple family systems and almost in some ways multiple universes, like I knew I'm a shape shifter because of my trauma.

Speaker 2 (31:59):

Right. <laugh> and I can go in and out of different scenarios cuz I had all of that experience. Whereas my husband at the time who had both parents still together, very nuclear, you know, intact family, like he didn't know how to do these transitions from his date to coming home. Right. It was harder. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean I feel like it's actually benefited me now is how I narrate it when I think about it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah, yeah. But absolutely my, my nervous system knows multiple parental figures. So I'm like, yeah, give me a, give me multiple romantic attachment figures. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (32:44):

Yeah. That's so great.

Speaker 2 (32:46):

Right.

Speaker 1 (32:48):

So, so the opposite of my reaction and my existence,

Speaker 2 (32:53):

Right.

Speaker 1 (32:54):

In fact you taught me this wonderful word, which I'd never heard before. Poly saturated,

Speaker 2 (33:00):

Poly saturated. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:02):

Yes. It's such a great term. The idea is I think you defined it as when the idea of an additional relationship feels more exhausting and exciting.

Speaker 2 (33:11):

Exactly. Yeah. And I didn't come up or coin that word. It's a word known in the non monogamous world, but yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:20):

That, that was, it was a new one to me.

Speaker 2 (33:22):

Yeah, good. Right. And some people are saturated at none. Let alone one <laugh>

Speaker 1 (33:27):

Right. Yes.

Speaker 2 (33:29):

Right. Yeah. Um,

Speaker 1 (33:32):

Yeah. And I think, I think that's a really kind of, uh, generous way of looking at it that yeah. We all have our saturation level.

Speaker 2 (33:39):

Yeah. And what I, what I did bring to that, which was different, was like, well, is, is it partner poly saturation or let's look at your life saturation. Right? Because there's times in life for so many factors that you couldn't take on another partner cuz you're, you know, have a newborn or you have an illness or a parent that's now at your house or it's a pandemic. Right. So many different things that life can be saturating as well.

Speaker 1 (34:11):

That pandemic question is really interesting. I wonder how that must have been a real challenge for polyamorous, uh, individuals or couples. How do I navigate I'm so used to kind of so much coming in and now I'm stuck on the couch at home.

Speaker 2 (34:27):

Exactly. And maybe with not my favorite partner. Right. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (34:32):

Oh my God.

Speaker 2 (34:33):

Right. Yeah. I think the polyamorous non monogamous, you know, is very, that's also was not very seen, you know, how hard it was, um, for people to feel isolated, especially under the more intense times of quarantine and lockdown. Right. You know that, um, and having to navigate well, okay. Let's say we have a couple that lives together and they have partners outside of the house. Well, your partner is a, you know, a school teacher and is a more high risk situation than my partner who works at home, but it feels really unfair that I get to see them and you don't get, you know, like where we have to stagger. Okay. You see your partner, then we wait two weeks. I mean, it's just, Ugh, really complicated,

Speaker 1 (35:19):

Really complicated. So much harder.

Speaker 2 (35:21):

Right. My partners immune compromise yours isn't you know, like it was just really, however, some people, they moved in together and it created something that would not have happened and they were great for it. Right. Oh, let's have that partner move in. You know,

Speaker 1 (35:40):

They create a new bubble that includes,

Speaker 2 (35:42):

That includes. Right. And that was beautiful or okay. Even if we're not moving in together, we are creating a, you know, our pod with this partner, who's now liked helping us with the kids. You know, there was a lot of things too that were really lovely and surprising. Um, or I had a couple that like, oh, we're enforced monogamy. And they were sort of joking about that, but they used, you know, a solid year to just focus on, well, let's work on our secure attachment. Let's use this as time

Speaker 1 (36:13):

For the last thing I wanna talk about is just what you just said. Let's work on our secure attachment. Yeah. And I wonder from your point of view, especially in a, in a polyamorous setting, how do I work on my secure attachment and my ability for me to feel securely attached to you or us together, how does that work? That I get to earn what sometimes referred to as earned attachment

Speaker 2 (36:40):

Exactly. The earned secure attachment. So there's two parts, right? Like two wings to that or two sides of the coin. And, and one of them is secure attachment with self, you know, is really working on like being my own rock. Right. And what are the ways I need to be feeling more in my own skin, you know, in my own center, right. Working through my own attachment wounds from childhood. Right. So that becomes a huge thing that's usually needed, um, is, is feeling more secure inside one's self. And then yeah, as I lay out in the book, like here's the different steps or things you can try out, you know, that are ways to cultivate this with your partner, but a lot of it's not to oversimplify it, but it's sort of like, what do you need to feel safe and valued and loved and what do I need to feel safe and valued and loved, you know, and desired and, and negotiating and navigating all of that.

Speaker 1 (37:45):

And so having that discussion

Speaker 2 (37:49):

With a lot of discussion. Exactly. Exactly. And usually not always, but usually in monogamy, there's a lot of that gets bypassed and there's just assumptions. Yeah. And expectations that were never made explicit. So there it's really about making all of this explicit.

Speaker 1 (38:05):

When you see couples that move into non monogamy, does it ever feel like one partner is dragging the other

Speaker 2 (38:15):

<laugh> that's a great question. Yeah. That definitely happens. And it's hard, you know, when you, yeah. I mean, usually it, there are certain times where both people are like, oh, this is a great idea. You know? Or they already were maybe swingers, you know, or they'd have a threesome, they bring a third and it was more sexual. And then they meet someone they have feelings for. And they're like, let's, let's try this. Right. Um, but yes, there's absolutely times when one person is like, this is what I am, or this is what I need and the other would never have chosen it.

Speaker 1 (38:49):

Right. You

Speaker 2 (38:49):

Know? And so I really work to slow down and not have that reluctant partner be dragged into it. Right. Quite, you know, cuz it's like, that's, that's gonna terminate this relationship because it's gonna traumatize that partner too much. Right. So how do we go through periods of experimenting with certain things, you know, to see if this other partner does actually wanna do this.

Speaker 1 (39:16):

Right.

Speaker 2 (39:17):

Yeah. Which a lot of times, one thing I see though is the initial reluctant partner. They think it's impossible. They'll, they'll never find anyone. They'll never have feelings or attraction for anyone. How could you go out and have feelings for someone else and still have feelings for me at home. And it, once they find someone, they have feelings for it suddenly like it uploads and they're like, oh <laugh> I get it now? Like, like I just had feelings and I came home and still had feelings for you. It can ha like they need the experience, you know, just,

Speaker 1 (39:53):

Oh, that makes so much sense.

Speaker 2 (39:54):

Yeah. And it, yeah,

Speaker 1 (39:56):

Yeah. To know that they could have, like you just said feelings for this new person and still have feelings for the old person.

Speaker 2 (40:02):

Exactly. Right. It like, it can't be theoretical or conceptual. They have to go through it. And what's hard is sometimes that takes six or nine months before you actually find someone. Sure. You know <laugh> so yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:16):

Yeah. And I wonder whether that's that's a, that six or nine months is, is the finding or whether that's really six or nine months for me to be really open to finding, you know, that it takes a while just to cuz we are taught so clearly that you can't do this. Yeah. You know that you can't have feelings of closeness for two people. You can't really be emotionally involved with more than one person. You can't love more than one. That's kind of baked into our kind of culture.

Speaker 2 (40:49):

Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1 (40:51):

And it's a huge shift to think, oh I can love you and I can love you.

Speaker 2 (40:55):

Exactly. Yeah. It's and that's one of the chapters in my next book too, is like honoring the paradigm shift. Right. <laugh> right. Like, oh this is a new paradigm. And it just takes a while to kind of OnRamp to that. Like it's not an instant process just as we would know, you know, if you decided to change fields and wanted to become a chemist, right. You wouldn't be a chem, you know, chemistry expert in the first few years even. Right. <laugh> right. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:28):

And when you see people making this shift, is there a gender difference that you tend to see?

Speaker 2 (41:38):

Yeah. Women initiate, opening up. I see more than men. If we're talking about a same, uh, you know, more hetero relationship. Um, of course I think, you know, gay relationships have been doing non monogamy forever and it, and it's kind of right. Speaked into that dynamic that in some ways yeah. Versions of it have been expected for a long time, you know, but not in straight hetero, you know, Monon, normative relationships. So normally I do see women initiating the opening up process and then usually women have a lot easier time finding partners.

Speaker 1 (42:16):

Right.

Speaker 2 (42:17):

And so there's this, I do mention it in the book. There's a privilege swap. Yeah. That suddenly happens. And the man's like, wait a minute, this is not fun or easy, you know?

Speaker 1 (42:30):

Yeah. And why do you think it's tends to be the woman who opens up? What's your view on that?

Speaker 2 (42:36):

Yeah. I think women are usually the ones that are initiating growth in relationships. Anyway. That's what we see. They're the ones that say, let's go to therapy, let's read this book. Let's go to this workshop. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> it's women that are normally, you know, the, the spearheads of, of the growth they're often because of gender issues also doing more of the emotional labor in the relationship. So

Speaker 1 (43:01):

Right.

Speaker 2 (43:02):

The, so there you go. They're the ones that are gonna say, you know what? I want this, or there's a problem here. Maybe there's a solution or let's try this, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> and I've seen it funny enough. I've seen it even in there's been moments or relationships I've seen, the woman doesn't even wanna be non monogamous, but she tells her husband to be, but it comes from her. Yeah. Yeah. He might have been complaining, you know, but she's the one who came up with the idea. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:32):

Oh, I see. I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but if, if a couples moves this way, the woman may be more likely to be the initiator. What do you think is the, the man's hesitance? Yeah. What's what's the, is it a fear?

Speaker 2 (43:48):

Yeah. There's usually, well, sometimes it's fear of losing their partner. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> of a lot of insecurities can get shown up that you haven't had to face. Oh, what if someone else is better than me? What if he makes more money than me? Right. He has more status than me. His penis is bigger than mine. Like all of that. Suddenly now the male insecurities get really fierce. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (44:16):

Activated yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:17):

Activated. Right. That you haven't ever be thinking about any of that, you know? Um, right. So right. Once you committed however long ago that then those fears could, you know, abate so to speak. Um, so a lot of it gets reactivated and then sometimes it's just disbelief. Like, can I actually find someone, you know, who's gonna want me if I'm only available twice a month. And I mean, now at this point, I'm like, there is some, there is more than one person who wants your situation. <laugh> trust me. You think you have the most obscure kink, there's four other people in a hundred mile radius who want the same thing on Tuesdays.

Speaker 3 (45:07):

Yeah,

Speaker 1 (45:08):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so lastly, you mentioned a couple times that you're writing a new book and what's the new book about

Speaker 2 (45:15):

Yeah. So the new book is called poly wise. Um, hopefully it will be out within a year. Um, and it's basically, you know, me looking at the, okay, what's going on in this transition that couple wanna do this, but it's so hard. Right, right. And it's not just jealousy. It's not just get better at making your agreements more clear. Those are important, but it's not, that's not sufficient. And attachment was one thing on the list. And so this book is the other sort of five or six things on that list

Speaker 1 (45:50):

Of oh, interesting

Speaker 2 (45:51):

Of, here's why it's hard and here's what, you know, you can do. Yeah. So one is like, how do you navigate a paradigm shift? That's a big undertaking. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, living from a different orientation completely to relationship and life, um, partners who never differentiated. So oh wow. You're having to go through an entire differentiation process and face challenges of codependency. <laugh> so different. Things like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:21):

That's so interesting. So it's, it's, it's all the, like you said, all the non kind of, um, attachment issues be, and there's a ton of those.

Speaker 2 (46:30):

There's a few of them, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Sort of like looking at the roots and there's, you know, five or six different root issues that that couples are experiencing.

Speaker 1 (46:43):

Yeah. And have you, have you been surprised at the level of success that you're that secure? Uh, poly secure has gotten, I mean, cuz it's kinda a lot of press

Speaker 2 (46:54):

It's blown me away

Speaker 2 (46:58):

Away. I mean I knew some people would appreciate it, but you know, I just, I feel like, I, I think I've said this before, like I was just the cook that made the meal that people were hungry for. Like, you know, that, that people in this community, um, in this lifestyle and this orientation were, you know, needing something like that. And that's a credit too, to my editor, my publisher who knew this book was needed, you know? Um, but yeah, even mainstream people are, I mean, they're not trashing the book, it blows me away, you know, they're, they're recommending the book. Right. It's yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:36):

That's great. But yeah, but that, that has to kind of stretch the boundaries of how you see yourself. Cuz now you're now suddenly you're a, a, a highly successful sought after author, not just as a therapist that kind of, that kind of expands your world.

Speaker 2 (47:53):

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's for better or worse because there's like for better,

Speaker 1 (47:58):

For

Speaker 2 (47:58):

Worse. Right. Cause yeah, there's been a whole learning curve on my end of like whoa, abundance issues now. Like <laugh> I can't quote myself. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:09):

That's great. Yeah. So Jessica, thank you so much for talking with me today. That's been so interesting and I think the work you're doing is so great and so important to kind of de-stigmatize and expand and acknowledge attachment opportunities live are exist well beyond just monogamy. Yeah. That, and I think that really is gonna help tons and tons of people. So thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (48:33):

Yeah. You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (48:42):

That's our episode for today. I hope you found it interesting and useful, but most of all, I'd like to thank you for listening. If you have a minute, please hit the subscribe button and give us a rating. And I hope to see you again soon on another episode of sex, love and couples therapy.